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 Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?

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Wombat



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PostSubject: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:36 pm

As a heterosexual family man, I cannot understand why other people get so distressed about homosexuality. Gays are just people - no better and no worse than straight people. Why should it bother me if the man next door happens to love and live with another man, instead of a woman? It wouldn't occur to me to tell someone that they can't marry a short person, or a blonde, or someone with blue eyes - that would be ridiculous, because it's none of my business, and it's the just the same if someone wants to marry someone of the same sex instead of the opposite sex. No problem.

So, why does Islam seem to have such a huge problem with homosexuality? A Muslim should just think "It's none of my business" and get on with his own life.

Agreed?
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:50 pm

Hello there and welcome to the forums. Well Islam forbids lust and sees it as a sin. That's all there is to it. I mean homosexuality is only really called that when sex and physical intimacy is involved between two people of the same gender. If you look at it in the context of the Triangular theory of Love, there are three scales of love: Intimacy, Passion and Commitment. Islam is fine with intimacy and commitment but it's the passion part that Islam considers wrong because of lust.

Something like an extremely close friendship is fine but if it comes down to sex then Islam strictly forbids it because lust is considered a major sin. Plus, lust is considered wrong and immoral in most communities since the start of mankind, not just Islam.
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Wombat



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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:06 pm

Does that mean it's OK if they're married, just as it's OK for a heterosexual couple if they're married?
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:13 pm

Brother,

I give you the Islamic Greetings, Assalamulaikum!

By all means welcome to our forum. I asked you in a PM if you reside in Saudi because half the people on this forum are Saudis, but it's great to know other people from different parts of the world are accessing our website. Sir consider this argument after you read my response.

Wombat you might ask, we have so much as should be able to personally in our lives, but the realities are this is not a personal world. What we do inherently, affects the universe. Consider the simple law of entropy; every chemical reaction, every physical reaction, simply results in chaos that constitutes to the cosmos. Now enough of my philosophy, back to the point.

Pretend you drink one day excessively within the bounds of your own home, cause it's your personal life. But, unfortunately you decide without any sense of right and wrong to take the car out for a spin. You get into a car crash and kill other along with yourself. You did that within the parameters of your own home, but you just assisted in a felony.

Lets look at another scenario. This time lets look at the 'law of the land'. Lets imagine you're a citizen of Denmark and you're a female whose at least 30 years old and practices prostitution. Everyday you deal with 15 and 14 year olds (I can't remember the age of consent, it's either 14 or 15), but however continuing. Your business thrives but then you seek to continue your activities in America, the home of the free and the brave. You do so without notifying the government and you have sexual relations with a minor, because you do not obey the law. You made that choice on a personal basis, you disobeyed the law. Don't you think you committed a felony?

However, lets even go farther. Lets say you're from Sweden and you started falling in love with your sister. In Sweden they allow sibling marriages. Imagine, would you like to live in a world where sisters and brothers marry? It is no wonder Sweden is known for "shipping and handling", cause the sibling marriages either kill the offspring or the children come out as 'big dumb apes' with no signs of any human intelligence. All they can do is push, shove, and load ships. However, let me continue. You go to the United States, cause you plan to get married in Las Vegas, the worst city of vice in America. Now, as soon as you marry here, do you not think you've just committed a felony? Incestous marriages are not allowed in America. If you wanted to get married to your sister why go to America? It is after all something the majority of the people of the United State do not want to see. Your action can easily influence the young minds who are not accustomed to sibling marriages. Not only have you disobeyed the law, but your offspring will either die within a few months, or live like monkeys. Why would you even go so far as that brother? God has never been ignorant in his place, at least in through our religious perspective. I do not know if you're a Christian or Atheist, but it would be better if you tell me your denomination so I can explain this better to you.

Simply, when one nation based one majority decision incorporates something that adds to the constitution you can't go against it. Once the law of the land has been based how can you change it? You have to obey the law of the land regardless of how you feel, because we do not live in a hedonistic world, nor does anyone promote anarchism.

Let me now give you a Darwinist view, which is solely based on an atheistic/biological view. If you can show me one animal species, part of the lower system God has ordained for us (that's if you believe in God) which solely lives off of homosexuality and is not near extinction I am willing to leave my ideology completely and I will become an advent supporter of homosexuality. However, the only time homosexuality has ever been stimulated by animals is within rare instances found in laboratories which they just did recently. And if you look at "Survival of the Fittest", that is defined by sexuality and genes. Sure if you have two homosexuals who happen to be a couple--they just wont be a healthy part of society, cause they contribute nothing. They fail to pass on their genes cause they are just like the horse and mule, no offspring can be produced. That's through a natural and biological view.

However, lets go back to Islam. What does Islam say about homosexuality? But before we even go to that look at how lenient Islam is with those who are almost damned to hell:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. So they will be taken out but (by then) they will be blackened (charred). Then they will be put in the river of Haya' (rain) or Hayat (life) (the Narrator is in doubt as to which is the right term), and they will revive like a grain that grows near the bank of a flood channel. Don't you see that it comes out yellow and twisted"

Even if you have an atom's weight of good in you, you will rise to heaven. Imagine for a moment 'a Hitler', with a bit of sincerity in him. Our God, the God of all humans, Allah forgives all sins but it all depends on your sincerity. The one sin he cannot forget is shirk (which is associating others with him).

So think of the worst possible thing you can do. If you're a murderer, or a prostitute, a pedophile, a homosexual, a thief, a crusader--it does not matter. If there's even a gram of faith in you, you have been saved, but remember, it depends all on your personal account.

Homosexuality is wrong because it is not part of God's natural order, it's as simple as that. Why doesn't the sun give off blue rays to Earth instead of Red and Yellow? Cause the spectrum on which color lie are defined by certain radio frequencies. Let me ask you something, pretend you fell in love with a man and you had a sexual relationship with him, and you had AIDS. You gave your lover AIDS, how romantic. The person you cared for so dearly, you have killed him/lessened his life span by at least 20 to 30 years! If you look to the Bible the same is said. Homosexuality was an abomination, not only was homosexuality practiced but Beastality. AIDS and STDS is not the only reason for the homosexuality's rejection in Islam, however consider the following verse from the Quran:

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! (The Noble Quran, 27:55)

"And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth." (The Noble Quran, 29:28-29)"

Our prophet went on to say:

'Abd al-Rahman, the son of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri, reported from his father: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "A man should not see the private parts of another man, and a woman should not see the private parts of another woman, and a man should not lie with another man under one covering, and a woman should not lie with another woman under one covering. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0667)"

Our God, Humanity's God, made it clear that homosexuality is wrong. But I will tell you one thing, we are not racists against homosexuals, we are not condescending towards homosexuals, and we are certainly not for hurting homosexuals. If homosexuals want to lead a life together they must leave the land. [b]
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Wombat



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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:11 pm

Hi Mulciber Ilus

To take each of your points in turn:

"What we do inherently, affects the universe"

I agree with this.

"You have to obey the law of the land regardless of how you feel"

I agree with this also, unless the law itself is unjust and immoral, and you are prepared to accept the consequences of breaking it. Also, bad laws can and should be repealed.

"Sure if you have two homosexuals who happen to be a couple--
they just wont be a healthy part of society, cause they contribute nothing."


I disagree. They can work and pay taxes just like everyone else. They can father, bear or adopt children, and raise them. They can help in the community. They can contribute to society just like everyone else.

"They fail to pass on their genes cause they are just like the horse
and mule, no offspring can be produced."


Many different species have non-breeding individuals. As you know, social insects such as ants and bees have a 'class' of individuals which are infertile and never reproduce -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Polymorphism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_bee#Genetic_characteristics

Also see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusociality

Many higher animals also have non-breeding individuals, e.g:

http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/personal/dean.williams/brown%20jays.html

... and many pack species such as wolves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves#Social_structure

So, non-breeding individuals, including homosexuals, are common in nature.

"Homosexuality is wrong because it is not part of God's natural order"

Then why does it exist? What is God's natural order thwarted by? Why can he not achieve what he wants? This does not make sense to me. If a supreme being really existed then there would be no reason for there to be anything that is not exactly as he wants it to be.

I think there are enough comments there to be going on with! :-)

Cheers,
John.
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:23 pm

Wombat wrote:
Hi Mulciber Ilus

To take each of your points in turn:

"What we do inherently, affects the universe"

I agree with this.

"You have to obey the law of the land regardless of how you feel"

I agree with this also, unless the law itself is unjust and immoral, and you are prepared to accept the consequences of breaking it. Also, bad laws can and should be repealed.

"Sure if you have two homosexuals who happen to be a couple--
they just wont be a healthy part of society, cause they contribute nothing."


I disagree. They can work and pay taxes just like everyone else. They can father, bear or adopt children, and raise them. They can help in the community. They can contribute to society just like everyone else.

"They fail to pass on their genes cause they are just like the horse
and mule, no offspring can be produced."


Many different species have non-breeding individuals. As you know, social insects such as ants and bees have a 'class' of individuals which are infertile and never reproduce -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Polymorphism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_bee#Genetic_characteristics

Also see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusociality

Many higher animals also have non-breeding individuals, e.g:

http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/personal/dean.williams/brown%20jays.html

... and many pack species such as wolves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves#Social_structure

So, non-breeding individuals, including homosexuals, are common in nature.

"Homosexuality is wrong because it is not part of God's natural order"

Then why does it exist? What is God's natural order thwarted by? Why can he not achieve what he wants? This does not make sense to me. If a supreme being really existed then there would be no reason for there to be anything that is not exactly as he wants it to be.

I think there are enough comments there to be going on with! :-)

Cheers,
John.


Salaams John,

Brother, I understand if you don't like stating your denomination, even if it may be atheism. It was my wrong to ask you. I just want to apologize for that. Anyways back to our debate!

Quote :
I agree with this also, unless the law itself is unjust and immoral, and you are prepared to accept the consequences of breaking it. Also, bad laws can and should be repealed.

What do you base your morals on? What is unjust to you? Do you base your morality on the Bhavagad? How about the Protestant Bible (66 Books) or the Catholic Bible (73 books)? Maybe you base your morals off the famous Dictionnaire philosophique by Voltaire, what about Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of Independence?

or

Do you base your ethics off of what your fathers taught you? And in terms of what laws should be repealed, I agree with you as long as it is based off of some law of order.

Lets continue:

You say:

Quote :
I disagree. They can work and pay taxes just like everyone else. They can father, bear or adopt children, and raise them. They can help in the community. They can contribute to society just like everyone else.

However, I was taking a Darwinist point of view. I know I included Atheism in my statement but I retract that completely from my argument when I talk about nature. I'm still new to the nature of online debate. It's been two years since I've actually had a healthy debate with anyone. John but I hope I convince you. Brother lets continue on. Realize that "Survival of the Fittest" is not when an animal brings up an offspring of another organism, but in fact breeds and produces offspring that are designed to live and continue to spread their genes. Do in fact homosexuals spread their genes?

The answer is simple, they fail to reproduce, they fail to create their own young, they fail to spread their 'own' genes. They are not the fittest according to 'natural order' of things. Consider the following multiple choice question that was given on an AP Biology Test from 1999, I believe (as far as I can remember):

Which is the fittest?

A) A Lioness that adapts cubs from another tribe.
B) The Lion who leads the pride.
C) A Lioness that gives birth to three, but only one cub lives

I can't remember the rest of the choices, but choice C is the correct answer, because the genes of the mother are preserved and passed on to the future generations. Simply in terms of Darwinism, homosexuals fail to be the fittest, for they are like what I mentioned in choice B. Imagine homosexuals who raise children, and they become homosexuals and the cycle continues. Generations are depleted only because of this vicious cycle. There are 25 million homosexuals in America, and I'm only talking about males. Imagine how many generations lost!

Quote :

Many different species have non-breeding individuals. As you know, social insects such as ants and bees have a 'class' of individuals which are infertile and never reproduce -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Polymorphism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_bee#Genetic_characteristics

Also see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusociality

Many higher animals also have non-breeding individuals, e.g:

http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/personal/dean.williams/brown%20jays.html

... and many pack species such as wolves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves#Social_structure

So, non-breeding individuals, including homosexuals, are common in nature.

"Homosexuality is wrong because it is not part of God's natural order"

Then why does it exist? What is God's natural order thwarted by? Why can he not achieve what he wants? This does not make sense to me. If a supreme being really existed then there would be no reason for there to be anything that is not exactly as he wants it to be.

I think there are enough comments there to be going on with! :-)


And John, I know that certain non-breeding animals create an organizational hierarchy within a species, but you can't say they're homosexual. You still have to prove to me there's an animals species that practices homosexuality. You falsely claim that ants, and wolves because of their non-breeding system they are in nature homosexuals. Do you know how many Americans and British--married couples are sterile and are trying to produce children? Many men get Viagra to promote fertility and then the woman takes in-vitro fertilization to get pregnant. Your argument is illogical.

I suggest you read Jurassic Park. The female dinasars who were designed to be females so that they couldn't mate, started to produce offspring--simply because they started to change their sexes. Certain amphibians have this capability, and their genes were incorporated within these dinosaurs (which was a big mistake). If nature is what you say it is, then why do we not see homosexuality in nature? Don't pick on the order of hierarchy in animal species, but give me sufficient proof that homosexuality exists. Once again if it did exist that species would have been extinct.

God made certain things exist. You can get your excrete, but are you ready to get hospitalized? You can jump off a cliff and not exist at all. Why has God made things such possible? To test you. That is the mission of humans on Earth. You should look at the science in the Quran. If you don't have a faith then perhaps the science in the Quran will convince you that what you're searching for is scientific reason to believe God. I'll elaborate later more.

Mulciber Ilus
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:15 pm

Hey Wombat.
Though christian, I'm siding with mulciber.
We have reasonably same beliefs on the fact that homosexuality is a choice, not something you are born with. In a physiological sense, homosexuality is a: not natural, thus b: Impossible without previous introduction to a traumatic experience.

If you trace back through the life of a homosexual, often there will be evidence of a traumatic childhood; abusive parents, absence of a parent/parent figure/guardian of the same sex (hence part the reason homosexuals are more often male), rape by same or opposite sex, or diluted sense of sexuality, often caused by degrading comments or repeated acts of minor violation. The only real medical reason that can contribute to whether or not a male is homosexual, is a chemical brain wash that happens:

"Between the 12th to 14th week of pregnancy, there is a flush of testosterone over the brain of a developing male fetus. This flush is absent in the female fetus. Testosterone causes the brain to manufacture more Seratonin (a powerful neurotransmitter that causes the neurons in the brain to become more active. It also has a second effect. The brain's neural networks , called ganglia, contain two very special kinds of cells: L cells and R cells. It is suspected that one of those kinds of cells makes Seratonin, and the other makes Dopamine. Dopamine is something of an opposite to Seratonin, and works to calm the neural networks of the ganglia. Estrogen in the bloodstream causes a greater amount of Dopamine to be created in the brain. A testosterone wash during that 12th to 14th week of the brain's development causes a balance to be set between the L and R cells. Once set, it is locked in place for life, and determines the relative influence of Seratonin vs. Dopamine on the ganglia."

This may slightly influence the push towards sexuality, but absence of this in a male is VERY rare, and even men who lack this wash are prone to become normally functioning heterosexuals.
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:06 pm

John,

I just want to say, dude I know this is a sensitive topic, but there should be no hard feelings, and I hope I am doing my best to be nice. Just let me know if I am not following the forum etiquette. I tend to get 'over zealous' at times! I just hope that I didn't say anything rude or hurtful. John your words are always respected on this forum. And if you can--can you get more people to come to this forum? We want this site to grow! Always great to hear from you John Smile

Mulciber Ilus

P.S. Jones Complete, I definitely agree with you there! You're very right, I've heard a lot about that theory of homosexuality and hormones.


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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:13 am

Hi again Mulciber Ilus

First, there's no need to apologise at all - It's fine to ask about someone's 'denomination'. I am an atheist. Also, no need to apologise about being over-zealous. We all do that at times.

Quote :
What do you base your morals on?

I base my morals on my conscience, which revolves around issues such as harm and consent.

Do you agree that homosexuals can and do contribute to society in the same ways as heterosexuals do? I think this is a separate issue from any debate about the evolutionary aspects of homosexuality.

However, as you mention that next, let's deal with the genetics. As I pointed out, many other species of animal have non-breeding individuals as part of their natural social order. As it is so common, this immediately suggests that there is an evolutionary advantage to this phenomenon. The thing to remember here is that 'survival of the fittest' is a phrase which was coined before anyone knew anything at all about genetics. Since then we have learned that the unit of inheritance is the gene - therefore if we are discussing 'fitness', it is generally the fitness of genes we are discussing, not the fitness of individuals.

Let's suppose that there is a gene which causes a certain proportion of the individuals which bear it to be non-breeding. How could this gene be successful and propogate in the population? Well, if the non-breeding individuals provide food and care to the offspring of other individuals which also bear this gene, the net effect may be a net increase in the prevalence of this gene in the population. Instead of there being (say) two sets of offspring which are poorly nourished, and poorly defended, which die before passing on their genes, we end up with one set of well-fed, well-protected offspring which are raised to maturity and pass on the genes which cause this phenomenon of non-breeding individuals. You can read all about this in the biology literature - it appears to be the best explanation for the prevalence of non-breeding individuals in many species.

Anyway, I'm not sure how important this point is to your argument, but I wanted to explain the phenomenon that you mentioned, as I see it.

Please note that nowhere have I claimed that other species have homosexual individuals, and that didn't seem to be your original point anyway - It seemed you were simply arguing that non-breeding individuals couldn't be explained in terms of an evolutionary advantage, which is clearly not the case.

Quote :
Don't pick on the order of hierarchy in animal species, but give me sufficient proof that homosexuality exists. Once again if it did exist that species would have been extinct.

As I said, I've not claimed that homosexuality exists in other species - I was addressing your original argument about non-breeding individuals, and pointing out that non-breeding individuals are common in other species, i.e. they are part of the natural order. It's also worth pointing out that homosexuality exists in humans and we are an *extremely* successful species - 6 billion of us and counting! :-) Therefore you can hardly argue that homosexuality is a problem for the survival of the one species in which we all agree it occurs. It also rather contradicts your assertion that "Homosexuality is wrong because it is not part of God's natural order" (and I might gently remind you that you didn't answer my questions about what God's 'natural order' could be thwarted by).

OK, so I think we've thrashed the evolutionary argument to death. What's next? I would like to take issue with another comment in your post:

Quote :
Imagine homosexuals who raise children, and they become homosexuals and the cycle continues.

So far as I'm aware, there is no evidence at all that homosexual parents produce homosexual children. Indeed, the only studies I've read on the matter show the opposite - i.e. that children of homosexuals are no more likely to become homosexual adults than the children of heterosexuals. This ties in with twin studies which show a strong correlation between sexuality and genetic relatedness. In other words, homosexuality is largely innate, not chosen or the result of post-birth experiences. I can dig out the references for this, if you like.

I'm out of time. By all means let me know where you would like to proceed with this discussion.

All the best,
John.
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:02 pm

Hello brother Wombat,
I only have one thing to ask - Why did you make it clear that you were a hetero in the 1st LINE of your post.
Think about-you told us that you were a hetero because you did not want us or people here to think that you were homo...why would you do that...
Its because you know yourself that being a homo is bad, and you wouldnt like to be even mistakenly thought to be one of them...
So y...some one like you who knows whats right...questions the right thing again and again..
Think about it!
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:27 pm

Don't be so harsh, Abdallah. We need to calm down and discuss this matter without hostility. We're not here to anger people or mindlessly debate opinions with little bits of data here & there...belief comes from within and we're all different. We will get nowhere fighting over this.

John, it is true that the religion of Islam disagrees with idea of homosexuality. I myself am not a supporter. But that does not mean I cannot respect the views of a homosexual. "To each his own" (I have no idea who said that...but it's a good point). It is most certainly possible to be a good Muslim and respect homosexuals for who they are at the same time. As stated in other forums on Faith of Freedom, the media only chooses to cover the stories that stir up the most commotion...which would be the extremists.

You have to understand that people that express their homosexuality in Muslim countries are breaking the laws and should be treated as criminals...but if they're expressing their homosexuality in a nation that allows homosexuality, then they're doing nothing [morally] wrong and should be respected for who they are. If a Muslim is prosecuting a homosexual in a country that allows homosexuality, then he/she is a misrepresentation of Islam. However, the Muslim should be allowed to express her views on the subject like any other citizen...but no hostile action should be taken.
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:29 pm

I meant no offense...i just wanted him to know that-he knows the right thing!...
and is asking why Islam punished wrongdoers..
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:29 pm

er...for that last sentence, I meant to put in "...express HIS/HER views..." to express both sexes...I just forgot. No sexism intended.
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:36 pm

Well...they are wrongdoers by our religious beliefs...but religious faith varies from person-to-person. Might I remind everyone that this is Faith of Freedom...all are allowed a voice in this forum...even homosexuals. We're all human beings. By all means, I'm not a homosexual...but I can still respect their views.

So yes, prosecution against homosexuals is justified in a Muslim country...because they're breaking the laws IF AND ONLY IF they publicly display it (if we prosecute people that don't commit crimes). If we prosecute people for who they are, and not by what they do, then we're no better than Hitler.
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:14 am

Abdallah wrote:
Hello brother Wombat,
I only have one thing to ask - Why did you make it clear that you were a hetero in the 1st LINE of your post.
Think about-you told us that you were a hetero because you did not want us or people here to think that you were homo...why would you do that...
Its because you know yourself that being a homo is bad, and you wouldnt like to be even mistakenly thought to be one of them...
So y...some one like you who knows whats right...questions the right thing again and again..
Think about it!

Hi Abdallah

It's a reasonable comment, and I don't blame you for making that assumption.

It's sometimes difficult to know, when discussing homosexuality, whether to state one's own orientation or not. I know that in discussions with people from the US, Europe and so on, people don't assume you're a homosexual just because you have a positive attitude towards homosexuality. In other parts of the world, I'm not sure whether this is the case. Where I live, it's generally regarded as a normal part of life, and morally neutral, just like heterosexuality, so heterosexuals will generally defend homosexuals in discussions where someone is expressing a negative view about it. Hence in other discussions I don't mention that I'm heterosexual. Here in this unfamiliar forum it's hard to know what assumptions people will make, so it was best to be clear about it from the outset. I don't want people to just unthinkingly assume that I'm speaking from the position of being a homosexual, which wouldn't generally be assumed in other discussions.

Also, if you look at the way the initial post was phrased, it was from the position of a heterosexual, pointing out that I see no valid reason for me to be telling other consenting adults who they can and cannot have a relationship with. Hence stating my orientation was part of the construction of the post.

I'm not in the least bit bothered about being thought to be homosexual, as it's nothing to be ashamed of, any more than being heterosexual is something to be ashamed of. They're both morally neutral. You will just have to accept that this is my sincerely held view.

Cheers,
John.


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Wombat



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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:24 am

Lord Energy wrote:
Don't be so harsh, Abdallah. We need to calm down and discuss this matter without hostility. We're not here to anger people or mindlessly debate opinions with little bits of data here & there...belief comes from within and we're all different. We will get nowhere fighting over this.

John, it is true that the religion of Islam disagrees with idea of homosexuality. I myself am not a supporter. But that does not mean I cannot respect the views of a homosexual. "To each his own" (I have no idea who said that...but it's a good point). It is most certainly possible to be a good Muslim and respect homosexuals for who they are at the same time. As stated in other forums on Faith of Freedom, the media only chooses to cover the stories that stir up the most commotion...which would be the extremists.

You have to understand that people that express their homosexuality in Muslim countries are breaking the laws and should be treated as criminals...but if they're expressing their homosexuality in a nation that allows homosexuality, then they're doing nothing [morally] wrong and should be respected for who they are. If a Muslim is prosecuting a homosexual in a country that allows homosexuality, then he/she is a misrepresentation of Islam. However, the Muslim should be allowed to express her views on the subject like any other citizen...but no hostile action should be taken.

Interesting comments, thank you. I would take issue with one point though. I think the moral issue is independent of the law - That is, homosexuality isn't morally right just because it's legal (or morally wrong just because it's illegal). Moral views are a matter of conscience, not just what is legal or illegal.

Cheers,
John.
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Peace Within

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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:25 pm

Wombat wrote:
Abdallah wrote:
Hello brother Wombat,
I only have one thing to ask - Why did you make it clear that you were a hetero in the 1st LINE of your post.
Think about-you told us that you were a hetero because you did not want us or people here to think that you were homo...why would you do that...
Its because you know yourself that being a homo is bad, and you wouldnt like to be even mistakenly thought to be one of them...
So y...some one like you who knows whats right...questions the right thing again and again..
Think about it!

Hi Abdallah

It's a reasonable comment, and I don't blame you for making that assumption.

It's sometimes difficult to know, when discussing homosexuality, whether to state one's own orientation or not. I know that in discussions with people from the US, Europe and so on, people don't assume you're a homosexual just because you have a positive attitude towards homosexuality. In other parts of the world, I'm not sure whether this is the case. Where I live, it's generally regarded as a normal part of life, and morally neutral, just like heterosexuality, so heterosexuals will generally defend homosexuals in discussions where someone is expressing a negative view about it. Hence in other discussions I don't mention that I'm heterosexual. Here in this unfamiliar forum it's hard to know what assumptions people will make, so it was best to be clear about it from the outset. I don't want people to just unthinkingly assume that I'm speaking from the position of being a homosexual, which wouldn't generally be assumed in other discussions.

Also, if you look at the way the initial post was phrased, it was from the position of a heterosexual, pointing out that I see no valid reason for me to be telling other consenting adults who they can and cannot have a relationship with. Hence stating my orientation was part of the construction of the post.

I'm not in the least bit bothered about being thought to be homosexual, as it's nothing to be ashamed of, any more than being heterosexual is something to be ashamed of. They're both morally neutral. You will just have to accept that this is my sincerely held view.

Cheers,
John.

Salaam John!

Don't feel bad at all! I trusted you the second you posted that part about you. As you can see we are a neutral group at least I am. Cause I even asked you what your 'denomination' was, cause I really didn't want to nor could I guess at your faith. Even if you didn't state your sexuality, I wouldn't have guessed. Truth is John, you're welcome here as one of us. I see that we are all younger than you, and for that reason I feel that you deserve our respect. You have my respect and you know that! Smile

It's true we're different. All of us, completely, and you've certainly come to the right place! We're not biased, as some people might find us, but we're definitely people you can talk to. I also have a friend that lives in the same country, which I wont name cause I respect all of our identities, however--I know that place is known to be full with different cultures and is more of a 'melting pot' than America at it's current rate of immigration.

Quote :
You will just have to accept that this is my sincerely held view.


That is just classic! I agree one hundred percent! Everyone's point of view is welcome, hence our catch phrase "An invitation to all races, color, and system of thought".

I better return to our debate! Just came back from school John! Forgive me on the account of replying so late! I might not even reply today. This is in essence one of the most difficult the topics to debate in. Do you mind I move this thread to the Debate Forum. I just realized today that this has become more of a debate than an question/answer session (there's nothing wrong with that all thought! Haha!) Just want to keep our place organized! Let me know John what you think!

Peace Within

P.S. Apologize for the change in my User Name, I want to keep my identity from being stolen, I suggest you also keep your name off the forums!
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:14 pm

Salaam once again!

I might reiterate my arguments again, cause I feel you haven't replied to them sufficiently to prove your point. I still see nature's duality at play. Regurgitating arguments might be petty, but I feel that I should elaborate a little bit more on my points. I would like to begin with a verse from the Quran:

And all things We made in pairs, so that you may give thought. (51:49)

Quote :
I base my morals on my conscience, which revolves around issues such as harm and consent.


You're basically telling me that your persona, that everything that makes your character part of who you are is based on your 'gut feeling'. Do you know that harm and consent are defined differently by all cultures/religions? For example let’s take a look at Hitler; he felt that all races but his ‘Germanic’ race was harming the upbringing of young adults in society in Germany. I’ll give you a good referral to this; watch the movie The Swing Kids. How about another person with an eccentric set of mind? Richard Dawkins, the world’s acclaimed biologist and atheist, feels that all people who have a ‘centered faith’ is dangerous to society (eg. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus). I’ll give you a referral for that also; his book The God Delusion. Let’s look at one more final character, actually in this case let’s look at a controversial idea; some mothers take a certain stand against abortions, because they feel that harm is done to the child, while others feel that it’s absurd to think any harm is done to an embryo that has not even started life’s journey. What accounts for this difference in opinion?

Your moral fiber Wombat is nothing short of what you’ve experienced throughout your childhood. Your thoughts, your ideas, they’re all intrinsic to what you’ve seen before. Where has your morality and sense of justice come from? The ‘melting pot’ of cultures I earlier mentioned? Or do you have some ‘innate’ judgment that you rely on? From what I understand humans have to be disciplined, and taught social etiquette.

Quote :
Do you agree that homosexuals can and do contribute to society in the same ways as heterosexuals do? I think this is a separate issue from any debate about the evolutionary aspects of homosexuality.

Of course they contribute to society, but not completely in the same ways as heterosexuals do. Homosexuals do pay their taxes, they do care for others in times of need, they do give charity—they are human beings just like you and me. However, what they do contribute to society is a few things that we’ve only seen come about after the twentieth century. It is scientific fact that AIDS and HIV was and still is today seen more commonly in homosexuals (of the male order), there’s no doubt in that. However, notice I’m talking in accordance to what is mainly accepted as today’s law of nature: Darwinism. On a social scale they’re the same as heterosexuals, but they fail to reproduce. Lets continue:
Quote :
The thing to remember here is that 'survival of the fittest' is a phrase which was coined before anyone knew anything at all about genetics. Since then we have learned that the unit of inheritance is the gene - therefore if we are discussing 'fitness', it is generally the fitness of genes we are discussing, not the fitness of individuals.


That is absolutely correct I agree. It’s been a year since I’ve read up on Biology; I accept that I mixed up two inherently different terms in Biology. However, it is not the ‘fitness’ of genes that we are going to discuss, it is the ‘fitness’ of that species to propagate its genes. I shall come to that later.

Quote :
However, as you mention that next, let's deal with the genetics. As I pointed out, many other species of animal have non-breeding individuals as part of their natural social order. As it is so common, this immediately suggests that there is an evolutionary advantage to this phenomenon.

Agreed. Non-breeding individuals, is and can be part of social order. However, this hierarchy you see in animals, how can you compare it to humans? Homosexual males and females are not ‘like worker ants’ nor the ‘gray wolves’ you mentioned. I don’t see homosexuals providing for those who ‘reproduce’ directly, like the ants do for the Queen ant (who plays no decision role in the colony anyways). You still haven’t proven my point. Even if the worker ants are sterile why do they not exhibit sexual intercourse with each other? There is not a single animal that has sex for pleasure, though notably the dolphin and your average housecat are stated to enjoy sexual intercourse; it’s a myth. And even if they do, there’s still no evidence of any homosexual behavior in nature in large quantity. I would also like to take the opportunity to point that you linked me to a webpage that explained the social hierarchy of the gray wolves species. We know in every pride, in every pack there are animals who belong to a lower status where they help ‘provide’ for the Alpha animal, whoever that may be, but however ;

Source: Wikipedia
Quote :
Usually, only the alpha pair is able to rear a litter of pups successfully. Other wolves in a pack may breed, but when resources are limited, time, devotion, and preference will be given to the alpha pair's litter. Therefore, non-alpha parents of other litters within a single pack may lack the means to raise their pups to maturity of their own accord. All wolves in a pack assist in raising wolf pups. Some mature individuals choosing not to disperse may stay in their original packs so as to reinforce it and help rear more pups.

Even the wolves with a lower status in the pack may breed. You had Kings, Popes, Theocracies, and God knows what else. In times of ‘famine and flood’ where did most of the supplements go to? To the peasants and workers of society? Absolutely not! The royalty feasted with nobility.

Certainly imagine this, if the worker ants had sexual relations, whereby no offspring could be produced, then how do the homosexuals of this species provide for the Queen ant who is waiting for nutrients to help her produce more ‘children’ to add to her colony? How? The ants have failed to bring the Queen the food she needs. Simply if this occurred in nature Wombat, logically do you not see that the ant colony cease to exist? This is what Islam forbids, cause imagine a world which only lived off of homosexual pangs and desires. If we’re going to compare the essence of nature within human society I want to go full length. The worker ants have a job to do, to help the Queen to REPRODUCE, not have sexual relationships. If they’re sterile and the Queen needs food, don’t you think evolution has engineered these ants without the capability to mate for a larger purpose? Reproduction! Indeed it is an evolutionary phenomenon. I agree with you!

Thus the statement you had made earlier on:
Quote :
So, non-breeding individuals, including homosexuals, are common in nature.

Prove it to me brother, and I will completely change my mind set.

Quote :
Let's suppose that there is a gene which causes a certain proportion of the individuals which bear it to be non-breeding. How could this gene be successful and propagate in the population? Well, if the non-breeding individuals provide food and care to the offspring of other individuals which also bear this gene, the net effect may be a net increase in the prevalence of this gene in the population. Instead of there being (say) two sets of offspring which are poorly nourished, and poorly defended, which die before passing on their genes, we end up with one set of well-fed, well-protected offspring which are raised to maturity and pass on the genes which cause this phenomenon of non-breeding individuals. You can read all about this in the biology literature - it appears to be the best explanation for the prevalence of non-breeding individuals in many species.

Brother, I have taken the one of the most rigorous courses in Biology, and it’s been several months since I’ve opened my AP Book. I have a feeling that you’ve taken an IB course in Biology, but you seem to have retained a lot from what you’ve studied.

I completely disagree with this I have to say. You’re saying that if there exists a non-breeding gene, and I carefully noted that you did not say ‘homosexual gene’, which I find extremely worthy of notice!—doesn’t it always seem that I veer off topic with comments of flattery? *Sigh*. Anyways, I want to also take a moment to define fitness:

Quote :
Fitness (often denoted w in population genetics models) is a central concept in evolutionary theory. It describes the capability of an individual of certain genotype to reproduce, and usually is equal to the proportion of the individual's genes in all the genes of the next generation. If differences in individual genotypes affect fitness, then the frequencies of the genotypes will change over generations; the genotypes with higher fitness become more common. This process is called natural selection.


Can show me one species which has completely produced just non-breeding organisms? Your logic fails here. It says that fitness “describes the capability of an individual of certain genotype to reproduce, and usually* equal to the proportion of the individual’s genes in all the genes of the next generation”. Brother, tell me something. When we’re talking about this non-breeding gene we are not looking at Fitness. If you want to talk about fitness you have to be firstly talking about an organisms’ ‘genotype’, its’ whole array of genes. Can you tell me how a non-breeding organisms’ genotype will pass on if he/she can’t mate? From my point of you’re talking about a bottleneck situation:

Source: Wikipedia:
Quote :
A population bottleneck (or genetic bottleneck) is an evolutionary event in which a significant percentage of a population or species is killed or otherwise prevented from reproducing, and the population is reduced by 50% or more, often by several orders of magnitude.

I would think that this non-breeding gene would produce a limited genetic variation. This only points to, in my logic, humanity’s doom if homosexuality is practiced on an immense scale—which has started to sky rocket only this century.

Continuing:
Quote :
As I said, I've not claimed that homosexuality exists in other species - I was addressing your original argument about non-breeding individuals, and pointing out that non-breeding individuals are common in other species, i.e. they are part of the natural order. It's also worth pointing out that homosexuality exists in humans and we are an *extremely* successful species - 6 billion of us and counting! :-) Therefore you can hardly argue that homosexuality is a problem for the survival of the one species in which we all agree it occurs. It also rather contradicts your assertion that "Homosexuality is wrong because it is not part of God's natural order" (and I might gently remind you that you didn't answer my questions about what God's 'natural order' could be thwarted by).


You’re right about that Wombat, but that only enhances my argument. If nature does not so a keen interest within the realms of homosexuality, then what do you possibly think links nature with homosexuality? Homosexuality does exist in our species, but whose made our species more successful? The homosexuals who are very few in number, or the millions upon millions of humans that mate? Do reply to that. I know you’ll say that homosexuals bring up children, and that’s true. Homosexuality does occur, but does it occur on a large scale in humans? No. Absolutely it doesn’t. Of course I can point to places like the United States where they have 25 millions gays in total, but I ask you, who mates: The homosexuals or the heterosexuals? And it is becoming a problem for us today. Homosexuality has only produced a significant output in the AIDS and HIV cases. Do prove me wrong on that one. And about God’s ‘natural order’—you read the verse I quoted from the Quran. Everything is made in pairs, for every reaction there’s an opposite reaction, for every male there is a female, for every electron there’s a proton, for every opposite attraction there’s a repulsive force. Nothing can thwart God’s natural order; however you’ll say they made homosexual animals in the laboratory. Indeed, but how long would they survive in the wilderness when reproduction is essential to survival? And, I still stick with Ian Malcolm’s quote from Jurassic Park, even if they genetically modify animals to become homosexuals:

“Nature, always finds a way.”

Wombat, pardon me but I’ll argue the homosexual matters when raising an adopted child later—I’m swamped with homework. Do tell me what you think about this! And let me know if I should move this to the debate section.

Walikumsalaam! Peace be upon you!

Peace Within
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:25 am

sup everyone,
this topic has piqued my interest. well since i live in california i've been able to experience some of the more liberal thinking of the state. recently, governor schwazenneger has proposed several bills (or propositions cuz that's what they call it on the commericals) that will drastically change the education of californian children. i don't recall the exact numbers of the propositions, but i'm sure it's researchable, but in a nutshell, the first proposition will affect the state by banning schools from teaching children in grades kindergarten and up that it is normal for only a man and woman to marry. this proposition will replace present textbooks with new ones that will be based on this new concept. the other proposition is allowing a male or female to enter the opposite sex's restrooms to allow individuals to feel comfortable of what they truly believe they are. the second one is a bit "iffy" because the potential increase of certain crimes. but the point is now there is a high chance that children being exposed to homosexuality early. a problem? yes and no. there is no telling wat effect this will on children. but to many people this will allow a new generation to decide if homosexuality is all right for them. well because california does have a reasonable number of homosexuals residing in the state, the propositions are hoping that future generations will not discriminate homosexuals. this is a just an example of how "forward" thinking is working in california.

yes ok moving on...right...ok i'm not sure but MAYBE most of us may have met a homosexual already, or if not, may meet in one in the future. there are many different degrees of homosexuality, some will engage in homosexual activity, others will not. homosexuals like many things, the people can be divided into conservative, moderates, and liberals. liberals may not care and display activities that is usually done between a man and woman. conservatives, yes i met one, will say something like, "this is my domestic partner, we share common views in life." conservatives will not necessarily sleep in the same bed, but live together happily without doing anything that will provoke the public. then there are the moderates, individuals who simply prefer the same sex due to various reasons such as saying, "i don't feel comfortable with the opposite sex, but i feel better with my own sex." these individuals don't do anything, and many times don't recognize themselves as homosexuals. (think reasonably on my last sentence, no ur not a homosexual if u ever had this thought, i'm referring to actual people and it was a just an example that can be interpreted differently) many homosexuals do not violate any beliefs of religion, but has a different "preference" that is not affected by desire, lust, etc. like everyone else they want to be accepted and tolerated. most homosexuals will live out lives just normal as anyone without breaking laws or offending religious beliefs. i don't rly think Islam condescends homosexuality, but condescends the unrighteous acts that may be committed. a heterosexual individual is equally at fault for committing something "unrighteous" (stuff overly done such as sex, drugs, alcohol, etc.) these acts can be committed by both heterosexuals and homosexuals, those acts are what i think all religion is truly targeting.
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:25 pm

SALLAM ALIKOM ON MUSLIMS
WELL SIMPLEY WE ARE HUMAN BEEN
AND EVEN ANIMALES NEVER ACCEPTED YOUR TOPIC IN THEM LIFE
IT IS NOT NATURE ( just in case if human dose preper them to be homosexuals )
ISLAM IS NATURE , REAL , Reasonable AND BALANCE
WE DO SEX TO MAKE KIDS NOT TO destruction WHAT OUR GOD GIVE US
AND WE BELIEVE THAT EVERY PERSON IN LIFE IS GOING TO JUDGE ABOUT EVERY THING, GOD GIVE HIM (IF HE USED IT RIGHT OR NOT )

Imagine YOUR SELF HAD GIVEN YOUR SON A CAR TO USEING IT RIGHT
AND HE USED IT TO STEAL , RUN AWAY AND Kidnapping (HOW U GANNA FEEL THEN )

AND BY THE WAY ISLAM IS NOT RELIGION THAT WE CREATED ITS RULES OR HAVE ANY CHOICE ON IT , ISLAM IS RELIGION OF LORD
WHO SEND US FOR WHY HE CREATE US AND HOW HE WANT US TO
WORSHIP HIM AND FALLOW THE STRIGHT LINE
NOT TO FALLOW SETAN AND DESTRUCTION OUR NATURE

WELL MAYBE MY SPILING IS BAD BUT I'M PROUD CAUSE ALLAH ALWAYES GIVE ME ANSWERS AHMDOLEALLAH
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:56 pm

Maybe....but we still have to respect the views of others...regardless of our religious beliefs.
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:17 pm

this is just too violent guys lets give a little bit more respect that that
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:13 am

Peace Within wrote:

Salaam John!

Don't feel bad at all! I trusted you the second you posted that part about you. As you can see we are a neutral group at least I am.
...
Do you mind I move this thread to the Debate Forum. I just realized today that this has become more of a debate than an question/answer session (there's nothing wrong with that all thought! Haha!) Just want to keep our place organized! Let me know John what you think!

Hi

I want you to know that I do very much appreciate the good-natured discussion we've been having here, and if you prefer to move the topic to a more appropriate place then please do so.

More in a bit...
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:45 am

OK, first point about morals: I do think we have certain innate moral feelings which develop as we grow up. Psychologists will tell you that virtually everyone in the world, regardless of location or culture, will give the same answer to questions about simple moral issues. For example:

Example 1

An empty train is racing out of control down the tracks towards another stationary train full of people. Clearly if the runaway train continues, many people are going to die. However, in between the two trains is a set of points which would take the runaway train onto a siding, upon which there is a train with a single railway worker. You have just seconds to decide whether to let the train continue on the main line, or go off onto the siding. In the first case, many people will die. In the second place, one person will die. What do you do? Do you change the points and kill one person, or leave them alone so that many die?

Almost everyone faced with this very difficult decision will say that you should direct the train onto the siding, killing the one man but saving many. It doesn't seem to matter where a person is from, what kind of society they grew up in - as long as the question is phrased in an appropriate way, to relate to their environment, they will choose to act and kill one person in order to save many.

Example 2

You have a whole room full of people who are going to die if they don't get an organ transplant. Each one needs a different organ. In walks a healthy man. Would it be right to kill that man, donate all his organs to the sick people and thus save numerous lives?

Almost everyone says no, it would not be right.

-----------------------------------

So, scientists conclude that there are moral tendencies which are common to almost all humans. The only reasonable explanation is that they are innate, a product of our evolutionary origns. Our moral feelings have contributed to us being such an enormously successful species.

If you think about it, this is obviously true anyway. When I see someone suffering or being harmed by another person, it distresses me, and I don't for one moment believe that this is something I've just been taught to feel. It's how I am. Empathy and compassion are part of human nature. I can be taught to do something, and maybe even taught to think a certain way, but I can't be taught how to feel. That's why I can't agree with your statement that "Your moral fiber Wombat is nothing short of what you’ve experienced throughout your childhood" (by the way, you can call me John :-) ).

Quote :
It is scientific fact that AIDS and HIV was and still is today seen more commonly in homosexuals (of the male order), there’s no doubt in that.

Only in certain places. Overall, far more heterosexuals have AIDS than homosexuals. The first recorded case was in a heterosexual. Either way, this has nothing to do with the moral issue. Asbestos workers are preferentially prone to lung disease. Does that mean that working with asbestos is immoral? I don't think so. It just means they were unfortunate. So, I don't see that your point has any weight here.

Back to the biological discussion: I should clarify that in your original post, what you seemed to be saying was this: Since homosexual couples do not (at least without help) produce offspring, this must be in some way unnatural, or against the natural order. I countered this by pointing out that many other species have non-breeding individuals as part of their natural order, so on that point alone your argument did not seem to be valid.

Your next point, as I understand it, is this: If there was a species which became entirely or largely homosexual, it would cease to exist. I agree with this. However, there is no sign that this is happening - the proportion of homosexuals in the population has appeared to be stable - and we certainly don't have any problems with reduced population growth (rather the opposite, in fact). So, I don't think this point particularly helps your case either.

Quote :
Can show me one species which has completely produced just non-breeding organisms? Your logic fails here

Well that's not my logic at all. It's a matter of observation - a matter of fact - that many species do have non-breeding individuals. We're not just talking about individuals which try to mate and fail, but about whole classes which are sterile, or don't attempt to breed. That must be genetic. If it's genetic, then clearly it must be passed on in those individuals which *do* breed. There's simply no other way the phenomenon could continue in a species.

Quote :
If you want to talk about fitness you have to be firstly talking about an organisms’ ‘genotype’, its’ whole array of genes. Can you tell me how a non-breeding organisms’ genotype will pass on if he/she can’t mate?

I think this is the problem I highlighted earlier. The unit of inheritance is the gene. Evolution therefore acts on genes. Individuals are not inherited, their genes are. There is no other way for the phenomenon of non-breeding to be stable in a species except by being inherited by those individuals which do breed. How do ants retain the genes for the production of worker ants, except by being passed down through the ants which do breed?

Quote :
Homosexuality does exist in our species, but whose made our species more successful? The homosexuals who are very few in number, or the millions upon millions of humans that mate?

Arguably the homosexuals because they pay more taxes and get less benefits... but that's really not the point. Let's say that humans are indeed the only species which have true homosexual individuals (I don't know whether this is true or not, but I'll assume it for the sake of argument). We might observe then, that the only species which has homosexuals is also by far the most successful species on the planet. Coincidence? Probably... but, it does rather make a nonsense of any claim that homosexuality is damaging to our species.

Quote :
Nothing can thwart God’s natural order

OK, so if everything is natural and nothing can thwart that, on what basis do you object to the natural occurrence of homosexuality in humans? Perhaps your answer will be that homosexuality is not natural, in the sense that it is chosen rather than innate. If this is so, then please explain how you personally would stop yourself from being sexually attracted to the opposite sex and start being sexually attracted to the same sex instead. Quite honestly I don't see how anyone thinks they can do this. I am quite sure I couldn't. So, homosexuality is clearly something innate, not a choice.

That's more than enough for now :-)

Cheers,
John.
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PostSubject: Re: Why does Islam have such huge hostility towards homosexuals?   Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:55 pm

Salaams John!

I just wrote such a long response, but all of it just vanished...sigh. I need to study for my finals, so I may not respond for a while. Do talk to the other members. I will come and talk a little on the other threads and forums. However, now I do not feel up to it on this particular topic since it takes a lot of energy out of me. I do enjoy this a lot, but I think I need a little time away to keep myself focused on the world of academia! (Sigh...my Alma Matter...)

Take care John! Don't leave the forums! I will reply! Just not today!

Peace Within
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