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 Islam and Astronomy!

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hellboy77

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PostSubject: Islam and Astronomy!   Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:43 am



Here is a video, that talks about some of the things mentioned in the Quran about astronomy.
Their is allot more information that the Quran gives us about astronomy, but their are many videos and they are very long. I encourage those whom wish to know more to simply search on youtube and post them here as well.
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Wombat



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PostSubject: Re: Islam and Astronomy!   Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:47 am

At 0:42 in this video, it quotes Surat adh-Dhariyat: 47 as indicating that the universe is expanding. Let's look at some different translations:

[51.47] And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are
the makers of things ample.
[51:47] We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to
expand it.
51.47. As for the heaven, We have built it with (Our) Mighty power, and
verily We are Makers of the vast extent.
51:47And We constructed the universe using matter, and We will expand it.
51:47 With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend
the vastness of space thereof. (Adh-Dhariyat 51:47)
051.047
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We
Who create the vastness of space.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the
vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are
the makers of things ample.
051:047 Khan With power did We construct the heaven. Verily,
We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
051:047 Maulana And the heaven, We raised it high with power,
and We are Makers of the vast extent.
051:047 Pickthal We have built the heaven with might, and We
it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
051:047 Rashad We constructed the sky with our hands, and we
will continue to expand it.
051:047 Sarwar We have made the heavens with Our own hands
and We expanded it.
051:047 Shakir And the heaven, We raised it high with power,
and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
051:047 Sherali And WE have built the heavens with Our own
hands, and, verily, WE have vast powers.
051:047 Yusufali With power and skill did We construct the
Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.


Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali, 1893-1987
and Muhammad Muhsin Khan, 1926-?1977. Clearly this translation is well
spoken of by orthodox.
Maulana Muhammad Ali, 1876-19511917. Satisfyingly literal. Cogent. Clean.
Marmaduke William Muhammad Pickthall, 1875-19361930. Biblical English, shall
ye wisheth.
Rashad Khalifa, 1935-19901985. Certainly there are colorful remarks about
this modern translator.
Muhammad Sarwar1981. Loose and innovative style. Attractively readable.
Mahomedali Habib, 1904-1959 (MH Shakir, pen name)1959. Seems to be based on
Muhammad Ali's 1917 translation.
Moulvi Sher Ali ?-19471955. Clear, direct and simple style.
Abdullah Yusuf Ali, 1872-19531934. Surely a well known translation,
commentary and history.


The later translations, e.g. Rashad and Khan, translate this verse as meaning fairly explicitly that the universe is expanding. The earlier translators such as Maulana Muhammad Ali and Abdullah Yusuf Ali only talk about the sky (the 'heaven' or 'firmament', as distinct from the ground), rather than referring to a vast universe of which the Earth is one small part, and the verse refers to a 'vast extent' or 'vastness'. It says nothing about anything 'expanding'.

To me, this suggests that the Qur'an is now being re-translated *in light* of what science has discovered, rather than it *foretelling* what science would discover.
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Peace Within

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PostSubject: Re: Islam and Astronomy!   Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:06 pm

Salaam John,

You've put in some interesting notions on this topic. May I remind you, you must cite your sources. It just becomes a hassale checking up your information. First off we do not believe Mualana Muhammad Ali, is an 'orthodox', nor is he percieved by the Muslim community as one who followed Islam adherently. I've never heard of his translatation of the Quran as being 'widely' accepted by the 'orthodox' Muslims. He was an Ahhamadiyaan, and even the Pakistani government lists them as heretics (they are not persecuted against however, and will not be discussed within this scope of the thread).

Yusuf Ali was a Pakistani, from Lahore. He did not know Quraishi Arabic at his best, though he became learned in many aspects of that language. I've read his biography and am very well aquainted with his personal life.

If you read the Quran, commentary made by Yusuf Ali, you'll see that he makes this comment on that very verse you decided to point out:

The Quran, Page 1427, Commentary No: 5025 made by Yusuf Ali

If you do not wish to go back to the wonderful things in the past, which show the power and goodness of God, and His justice supreme over all wrong-doing, look at the wonderful things unfolding themselves before your very eyes! (1) The space in the heavens above! Who can comprehend it but He who made it and sustains it?


Notice how Yusuf Ali uses 'heavens' in his commentary and not sky. The Arabic word here John, is Wassama'a (meaning the heaven). If you go accordingly to Yusuf Ali's definition as Firmament, do you know what that means?

Firmanent:
The celestial regions as seen from the earth: air, heaven (often used in plural), sky.

Lets look at the Meriam Webster Dictionary definition:

1: the vault or arch of the sky : heavens
2:obsolete : basis
3: the field or sphere of an interest or activity firmament.

No John, Allah was not talking about the 'sky', not even the stratosphere, but what appeared to man; galaxies, stars, planets, simply the cosmos. This is the vault or if you may, the arch that contains the interest of God's activity. Understandably the cosmos, of which Earth is just a small portion of.

Even when the Greeks, and Christians, who used arguably the word 'Firmanent'--was used to describe as to what people saw; galaxies, stars, planets, simply the cosmos, not something concrete called the sky.

Then again, may I ask, why are you just going by what the translators say? Allah is not the one to blame, but put the blame on the translators if they do not how to translate the Quran correctly. If you want to read the Quran in context, go back to the main source, the Quran which is written in Arabic.

Now because you want to analyze Yusuf Ali's translation literally, lets start off.

Surah Zariyat, Verse Number 47:

With Power and Skill
Did we construct
The Firmament:
For it is We Who create
The vastness of Space

Read: We who create the vastness of Space. It is Allah that increases the length and width of the cosmos. Without a doubt, it is Allah who expands Space, or in Yusuf Ali's terms 'creates the vastness of Space.'

If you want to go so far as to congegate the Arabic Words to their literal meaning, you can try, but it is very difficult. According to some historians and translators, the Quran is one of the most difficult books to translate. I know a few Arabic words myself. Do you know how many ways you can translate "Toufhdhael", please come and sit down, take a seat, come inside, have a seat, come sit, please be seated. As you can see Yusuf Ali translates "For it is We Who create the vastness of Space'

Notice how it does not say 'it is We Who created* '. Honestly John, where does it imply anywhere that God had ceased creating this vastness of Space. Expansion and vastness, used in that context are synonyms. Your English is better than all of ours (at least it seems so) but I thought you would have come to see that when Allah says 'With power and skill did we construct The Firmanent' I thought you would have seen that this sentence insinuates that the process had been started, but not completed or it would have been read 'With power and skill we contructed the Firmanent'. Then later on it reads 'it is We Who create the vastness of Space.' This further implies that the 'expansion' or 'process of creating' space has not yet been completed. This fits in perfectly with how the Allah tells us in the Quran the fate of the Universe:

The Quran, Surah Al-Anbiyaa (Chapter 21), Verse 104

'The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed)-even as We produced the first
creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We
fulfil it.

The Universe will expand, and expand, until the opposite takes affect. The Big Crunch, however it has not been scientifically proven yet. The dark matter is still to be resolved.

Thank you John for your question!

Alhamdolilah, the Quran is yet once again One Hundred Percent correct in it's detail about the Samaa'aa (Universe).

Mashallah

WalikumSalaam,
Peace Within

P.S. I do agree with all of the literal translations you posted. None of them contradicts our beliefs. Remember it's the translators fault if he does not know Arabic or the scope of words' definitions. Also, do keep in mind this is not a debate, we are setting new rules for the Debate Forum soon.
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Wombat



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PostSubject: Re: Islam and Astronomy!   Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:15 am

Hi, Peace Within

As you say "... this is not a debate", I will simply thank you for your answer and wish you well.

Cheers,
John.
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Peace Within

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PostSubject: Re: Islam and Astronomy!   Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:55 pm

Assalamulaikum!

Here's something else that you'll want to look at Hellboy. Though science has not proved this yet, we believe in the Big Crunch, the fact that the Universe will shrink to a size smaller than a proton. It's just like how the the Big Bang started off from a single point. Read this from the Quran:

[Qur’an, Surah Al-Anbiyáa (The Prophets, Chapter 21, Verse 104]

That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do.


Interestingly enough the Big Bang is also mentioned in the Quran:

[Qur'an, Surah Al-Anbiyáa (The Prophets, Chapter 21, Verse 30]
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?


I shall continue some more on this, gotta go study!

John if you have any questions, I would be glad to answer them for you Smile

Peace Within


Last edited by on Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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hellboy77

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PostSubject: Re: Islam and Astronomy!   Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:45 pm

Here is another link, showing just how big the currently "known" universe is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GQYkiekNhQ

Also currently astrophysics and the theory of relativity, prove that everything has been predetermined (fate/destiny). According to astrophysics time is simply defined by t = 1/f. Where f is the frequency of the electromagnetic radiation in the environment. Therefore on earth and in a "normal" environment this frequency is constant and therefore time is constant and everything occurs at a normal pace. But with the theory of relativity, around places with a very strong curvature of space and time (which is what causes the effect of gravity) like a white dwarf, neutron star, or black hole. The frequency of light (and all other electromagnetic radiation gains energy as it approaches the object. Causing it to become higher in frequency, and by the equation t = 1/f (which how modern astrophysics defines time), as the frequency increases, the time intervals will decrease. This will speed up time to an observer inside such an environment looking outside to the rest of the universe.
Haha yes he will see the future. Including the future of the universe, and even the fate of humanity. Proving that in fact everything has already been determined and written.

The process is in fact much more complicated, but i have tried to explain it as simply as i can.

Now you could say that the theory of relativity is just a theory. That is true, but all experiments and studies have pointed that the theory is correct. For example,
according to special relativity, light rays should be curved around any object that has mass, the larger the mass the more the curvature. Therefore around an object like the sun, their should be some curvature, and in fact that has been proven to be correct. Many experiments have been done with stars (whom we know the exact position of) that we shouldn't be able to see as they are right behind the sun (during a certain date), yet we have still been able to see them, as their light is being curved slightly as they come near the sun. Here is an diagram showing this;
From (http://library.thinkquest.org/C0116043/pic11.jpg)
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Peace Within

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PostSubject: Re: Islam and Astronomy!   Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:18 pm

I sense, I need to upload a Brief History of Time! Inshallah I'll do so sometime. I'll check with Admin if we can upload pdf's on the website.

Peace Within
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